Politics thread

Typical El Presidente Random Thoughts type stuff

Who should be the President of the United States?

Barack Obama
6
15%
Sarah Palin
2
5%
Tom Brady
16
39%
Other
17
41%
 
Total votes : 41

Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:10 pm

cool_hand wrote:

Onerous estate state taxes only apply to the rich. The burden of property taxes is carried disproportionally by the wealthy. Current capital gains tax is 15% but only 0% for the bottom tiers. Same is true for dividend taxes. There are a bunch of luxury taxes that are paid by the rich - for example the class warriors implements a yacht tax that just made boat owner buy and dock there boats overseas, while the local boat building industries were destroyed, but they "got the rich".

On top of all that they use fewer services. They don't get pell grants and subsidized student loans. The don't ride public transportation. They wont get Medicare. They probably don't even send their kids to public schools. "Fair share" is all relative.


Dude you live in the twilight zone. Most of those items they tax are produced without creating many jobs, because they are produced off shore and dont pay Americans.

If you think they dont use those services you are insane and if you are claiming that taxing million/billions in toys and assets in the economic nightmare we are in is wrong and somehow a "woe is me" for the rich you might be stupider than a sheep.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby cool_hand » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:53 pm

Complete non-sequitor. Started talking about individual taxes, now talking about business production overseas. I think, but I really cant tell what you're talking about because it doesn't really make any sense.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby midd » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:00 pm

A real life example of what reduced taxes do to corporations took place when FAA was shut down a few weeks back. Rather than pass the savings on to customers to potentially boost demand, all but a few airlines raised their ticket prices 7.5% and pocketed what otherwise would have been paid as tax.

I still haven't seen an explanation that tax cuts and deregulation are going to overcome and reverse the dearth of demand that's dragging the economy down. The consumer is so fucked that it doesn't matter.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby cool_hand » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:23 pm

Giving tax cuts to the wealthy during the last 10 years has not worked and will never work again. They do not do the right thing with that money, something I believe our forefathers did do, which is make all classes of people int his country better off and grow together.


People do realize that we had no federal income tax for the first 150 years of the Republic. The Founding Father "do the right thing with that money". What the hell are you talking about? There was no wealth redistribution until the middle of the twentieth century.

From 1776 to WWI, we went from thirteen, backwater colonies that most countries did not recognize to becoming the most powerful, most prosperous, and most free nation on the planet without a federal income tax. The federal income tax became legal in 1913 and was miniscule until WWII.

Could drop all the economics, theories, quotes in the world, but the eyeball test is best.

Historically, the nations with lower tax rates, less regulation and the more freedom prosper compared to counties that don't. That was the history of the 20th century, the great battle between free enterprise systems and socialist systems, and the socialists failed. A free Great Britain thrived until the Fabian socialists took over. Countries that followed the American model thrived in comparison to those that followed soviet, socialist an leftist models. Japan and Taiwan and South Korea followed the American model of free enterprise, while North Korea, China, Vietnam followed the leftist models. China is deregulating and embracing free enterprise, and they are exploding after generations of Maoism.

There are many places where the rich do pay high taxes and they suck. Even the more decent places are going broke... in Greece, Portugal, Spain, England...

In England, the top rates is 50% on income and 50% on savings for anyone making roughly over 300K in dollars. How is that working out for them? The punks and brats are still rioting, burning down family businesses. They are going broke. They have to dismantle their nationalized health care program. But the welfare classes are the majority they are throwing their hissy fits. There are more consumers than producers. More takers than makers. The youth feel entitled to get everything for free, and if they dont they riot. The tax rates you want exist in Greece. No thanks. I'll pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjdhEvosC3I
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Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:35 pm

DUDE! You can't compare the current infrastructural needs or the cost of a B2 Bomber to what our forefathers had to pay for in terms of the countries costs, and while there wasn't an income tax per se there have always been taxes in this country. I would add that every day you use dozens of things paid for by tax dollars. Things I bet you are not willing to go without. Nearly every one of the governments, Great Britain more so than any, that you say were great before they taxed its citizens did so while that country practically enslaving entire populations around the globe by calling them colonies. You might recall a small conflict based almost entirely on taxation that resulted in a small country revolting against the tyrannical rule.

Everything you say came from some media hyped conservative nut job.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby cool_hand » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Everything you say came from some media hyped conservative nut job.


Not really. I actually triple majored in history, political science and legal studies at UMass Amherst and graduated from law school. I know the liberal arguments well, but I took the time to study other sides, and not just accept their indoctrination. With respect to economics, most of what I say comes from people like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig Von Mises.

I know its really hard for bed-wetting liberals to understand there is an intellectual backbone to conservative and libertarian philosophy, and that "The Right Wing" and Republicans are not just a bunch of rich people, racists, and bible thumpers. Your threats of riots because of the tax rates is just so sad. Raising taxes will be just as successful here as it was in Greece. Just as successful as the great consumer-centric Keynesian "stimulus" that led to the "summer of recovery". Give us more freebies or we will riot. Unbelievably sad.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby BS1 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:06 pm

ouch, Lugz.......and your response?
It is what it is......
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Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:08 pm

Those countries taxed over taxed wealthy people....I would just like to see them have to pay in at the same rate as the middle class. Then pass the budget caps and cuts in spending that are necessary.

I believe you when you say you studied history, but have issue with the way you apply it to your argument. While I have said, twice today in fact, that history teaches us about the future, there are some arguments that can't be made based in the past. Taxation must be considered when held up to the present facts, not history's economic situations.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby TEE » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:14 pm

Giving tax cuts to the wealthy during the last 10 years has not worked and will never work again. They do not do the right thing with that money, something I believe our forefathers did do, which is make all classes of people int his country better off and grow together.


Except the slaves. I mean you point out what our forefathers did. But you tend to ignore quite a bit where it doesn't suit your needs. If our forefathers saw the amount of different taxes we pay they'd think we're nuts. Giving tax cuts to the wealthy is better than giving hand outs to the lazy. But then again the leaders of the Dem party think the quickest stimulus is an unemployment check.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:23 pm

cool_hand wrote:
Everything you say came from some media hyped conservative nut job.


Your threats of riots because of the tax rates is just so sad.



I'm not sure where I threatened riots exclusively. The upheaval I eluded too encompasses many things and they are evident today. Increase in petty thefts, home invasions, violence....etc all on the rise and all as a direct result of humans forced to do things that they may never have done without the conditions of the current crisis.

I'm not sure how you can have studied all that you did and miss events like the Great Depression, and the whiskey rebellion to name a couple. All examples of a populous in turmoil.

Admittedly I had to Google the tax point you made because its been a long time since I was in school. But "The federal income tax became legal in 1913 and was miniscule until WWII" Isn't entirely true even if we assume that infrastructure costs for our country stayed flat, which they didn't. The first income tax imposed on citizens in America was in 1861, and brought to bare by a Republican named Lincoln.

One final thing. I do not believe that all wealthy people are Republican, but all wealthy people are paying too little in taxes if they are taxed less than 20%.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:35 pm

TEE wrote:Except the slaves. I mean you point out what our forefathers did. But you tend to ignore quite a bit where it doesn't suit your needs. If our forefathers saw the amount of different taxes we pay they'd think we're nuts. Giving tax cuts to the wealthy is better than giving hand outs to the lazy. But then again the leaders of the Dem party think the quickest stimulus is an unemployment check.



They would be too busy on the internet looking at porn to care.
:lol:

Yeah till the lazy break in to your house and steal your shit, and nobody catches them because we don't want to fund the useless police who just live on the states money and do little for their benefits. Or does that money just magically appear after all of the cuts in state funding headed to a neighbor hood near you when the Fed stops sending the checks? I wonder how many policemen the world required in 1776, firemen, teachers, sewer workers, highways, bridges, tunnels? I wonder how much their health insurance costs were for government employees, or how much any insurance cost back then for that matter. All paid for today by the taxes we pay. All the while the tea baggers and people of that ilk claim that costs need to be cut. Believe that social programs only go to illegals, and the lazy people that dont want to work. No consideration for those who truly need help, no compassion from them in the name of the God and the book they revere, and constantly hold up in the faces of the people who are doing the work for the underprivileged claiming that same book drives them to be Christian and follow Jesus's teachings.


The stimulus you of course say went to the unemployed also showed up at my house, and yours, and many others. We did what most did drove the economy by spending it on something we wanted. I might point out that President Bush sent me 2 of those while I was employed as well.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby TEE » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:41 pm

lugnutz wrote:

The stimulus you of course say went to the unemployed also showed up at my house, and yours, and many others. We did what most did drove the economy by spending it on something we wanted. I might point out that President Bush sent me 2 of those while I was employed as well.

No, what I am quoting is directly from the White House and Nancy Pelosi.
They think unemployment checks are the fastest way to stimulate the economy and create jobs.
Not the stimulus money, not the tarp, unemployment checks.
Just like Obama thinks ATMs are job killers.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby lugnutz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:53 pm

I disagree with her. People with 26 weeks left of benefits dont look as hard, or settle upon a job till they approach that mark. so giving them 99 weeks is asinine. But it raises a fair question, how do you separate the truly needy person who can't find a job from the lazy one who is milking the system? How do you not just cut off thousands of honest Americans who need the help from a system they paid into for many years at the greatest time of need for them? Would you have them and their families just cut off and left with nothing?

I'd just tax the super rich at the same rate I pay on the dollar and fund the stimulus for the most needy Americans with that revenue. I'd spend billions more of that revenue on tax cuts for the small business owners....the people who actually do create jobs in this country. With the leftover money....and there would be lots of leftover money if they closed the loopholes and taxed appropriately I'd let the rich eat cake!

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Re: Politics thread

Postby DC » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:55 pm

I'll weigh in like this ... from 03 through 09 when I was making really good money much more then i deserved fyi , I got money back from the government.. last year as a grad school student I owed money ... I made about 1/8 of what I had been making when i got money back lol ... my nickname amongst DC area friends was Johnny Writeoff but still when i found out I owed last year i said thats all the proof i need to know how fucked tax code is..

Is it not the loopholes more then the actual rate that is messed up? Its how the super riches taxed income shrinks more then actual % . I don't think anyone here is arguing for the lower class handouts.. I mean I would guess at least 90% of the stool board is middle to upper middle class right? I judge how the country is doing economically by how the middle class is doing
Last edited by DC on Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Politics thread

Postby rearadmiral » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:49 pm

" I would guess at least 90% of the stool board is middle to upper middle class "

Sounds about right.

And it's easy to tell the difference.
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